Any comments, he asked innocently?
Tuesday, August 28, 2007
Buy my comics, make me rich: AMAZONS ATTACK #6
It's out Wednesday, the grand finale of the six-part let's-destroy-Washington action-packed epic. Here's the cover, by Pete Woods...
Any comments, he asked innocently?
100 comments:
Mr. Pfeifer.....
I wrote some posts in your blog before. Now, after issue 6, I can say it without doubt:
"Amazons Attack" is the most damaging, worst Wonder Woman story ever.
I wouldn't mind so much if it was just a bad story, we are used to that, but I don't think you are even aware about how much damage you did to the character.
Believe me, it's not just me talking, you basically enraged the WW "community", to call it something.
Have a look for yourself, don't be shy:
http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000127758&tstart=0
Dear Mr. Pfeifer,
Word on the Internet is that you were basically handed this story pre-plotted by DC editorial, and that you basically scripted the plot points. I don't know how true that is, but since I am a huge fan of your H-E-R-O, CATWOMAN and AQUAMAN, I'm hoping it is indeed true. You couldn’t have possibly conceived AMAZONS ATTACK.
My issues with it are legion, but my biggest gripe is that the story, as a premise, is highly illogical—even in the magical universe of serialized fiction.
First, the Amazons would have never attacked the U.S. preemptively—even if prodded to do so by a Circe-infected Hippolyta. Why wouldn't they? Because:
1. They’ve been down this road before and they know where it leads.
2. They have prior experience with Circe and know her to be a master manipulator (Circe has done this to them before). They wouldn’t have trusted her, no matter what she claimed. They also know that Diana can take care of herself, so they wouldn’t have feared for her safety.
3. The Amazon nation was no longer a monarchy. Hippolyta and Diana abolished that system of government before Hippolyta perished. Thus, Circe-infected Hippolyta's demands held no political weight.
4. Phillipus and Artemis, the representatives of the true and current democratic nation of Themyscira, would have never allowed this. They would have certainly done more than say to Hippolyta, “This isn’t the Amazon way” as she chopped the head off of an innocent camera man.
5. The excuse that the U.S. wanted their Purple Death Ray technology also falls flat as a reason for war since the Amazons, and their nation, was removed from this reality. The U.S. had no way of making good on any efforts to obtain the Purple Death Ray since Themyscira and its technology was in another plane of existence.
This story actually would have made a tad bit of sense if the Amazons were being told to fight this war by Granny-Goodness-Athena since Athena is their patron goddess and they would have been compelled to obey even if they disagreed. But Granny-Goodness-Athena was actually against the war from the very beginning and made her position clear from the very beginning.
AMAZONS ATTACK was obviously a means to an editorial end, satiating corporate desire to rid Wonder Woman of those aspects of her mythos deemed “unprofitable” or “impenetrable.” I’m not sure why the human intellect is so vastly underrated at DC (or perhaps, particularly when it comes to Americans, I DO understand), but I for one loved all of the things that made Wonder Woman different from traditional superheroes: her intellect, her politics, her feminine strength, her mythology. Maybe I was in the minority.
Nevertheless, I believe a grave injustice was committed with this mini-series. It’s been careless and thoughtless—except for its loyalty to the almighty God of profit (but even that isn’t being mindful of the long term). It’s been a cannibalization of sorts: Amazons that no longer know that they’re Amazons dispersed throughout America (didn’t DC similarly anesthetize the White Martians in JLA?); Olympian Gods of vast power conveniently and mysteriously defeated off-panel by second-rate New Gods who have never displayed the level of power required to accomplish such a feat; psychotic, murderous Amazons who live up to every misogynist, fear-baiting thought that has been held of them. And I think it’s a shame that someone of your talent is associated with it all—and of course the poor, brilliant Pete Woods.
I used to think that DC had it in for Wonder Woman (and this mini-series has done nothing to dispel the thought); that there was just a blatant disrespect and disregard for the character that was so engrained in the corporate mindset that it became hidden in plain sight. And I thought that resentment stemmed from—besides the obvious “What’s this girl doing in our Men’s Club?” mentality—the fact that DC had to publish Wonder Woman, whether they wanted to or not, or lose their rights to the character altogether. But I’ve taken a peek at what they’ve done (or more specifically, not done) with Superman and I see that they have enough disrespect for their properties to spread around. The only character that seems to escape their machinations is The Bat-God (also evident in this mini-series). I wonder if that’s because Bob Kane and (presumably) his known relatives are dead and there’s no one left to sue DC for custody.
What’s worse is that the powers-that-be at DC will probably analyze the negative feedback that this series has garnered—and its less-than-spectacular performance on the sales charts (as well as its effects on the sales of the tie-in issues)—and view it as a result of the “inherent flaws” in and “disdain” for the Wonder Woman character herself, when nothing could be further from the truth. If they would simply look at Allan Heinberg’s debut issue of the current series, or Greg Rucka’s final issues of the previous series, they’d see that it’s possible to sell a WONDER WOMAN comic without destroying everything that makes Wonder Woman wonderful. What the powers-that-be consistently fail to realize is this: you can’t bake a delicious chocolate cake, cover it in feces instead of frosting, put it on sale, and then, when it doesn’t sell, come to the conclusion that people must not like chocolate cake.
No disrespect intended, but what I think people must not like is feces.
Cordially,
Bobby
Will,
I actually enjoyed Amazons Attack. In particular I enjoyed how it weaved through the DCU in well-defined crossovers that enhanced the story, and I felt that you did a great job of planting the seeds that would explain Athena's big speech at the end. When war breaks out, everyone is responsible for their role in it, and I was happy to see Athena take all parties to task. What perplexed me, however, was that Athena's impassioned speech was actually delivered by someone who wouldn't have believed a word of it . . . sure fooled me!
Oh, and the rest of your stuff kicks serious butt, too. Catwoman is just fantastic, HERO and Aquaman were enjoyable, and I look forward to your next projects, whatever they may be.
Mr. Pfeifer-
Congratulations! You have managed to do what no Nazi, God or Super-Villain could do!!
You killed Wonder Woman.
There is nothing left of the once great character that I once loved so much.
You saw to it that everything that made her special and "real" was stripped away until all that was left was just a pretty woman in some armor.
I mourn for a hero that deserved so much better than this, and a writer who showed so much potential.
How DC could let this be published is a mystery even the "Question" would have a hard time unraveling.
Every panel betrayed the vision of William Moulton Marston and every writer who worked so hard to create an amazing compelling mythos.
It truly seems as if you had no respect for anything the character stood for, or that you were even familiar with her history.
Gail Simone has the toughest job in comics now, but she is a true Wonder Woman and I look forward with cautious optimism that Diana will return to true form...because you see I actually understand the character and know that she would expect nothing less from me.
And if fan opinion isn't enough, this comes from a respected web resource, IGN:
http://comics.ign.com/articles/816/816891p2.html
Their rating summarizes it: "Burn It"
"Gail Simone has the toughest job in comics now"
This statement cracked me up. Thanks for writing that. :)
I will try my best to be partial, but it's hard when I've seen how the character had grown under writers like Perez & Rucka, so I'm kinda upset that Amazons Attack seems to disregard all that had come before.
Anyway, let's talk about what I like:
I liked the art. Amazons Attack had nice artwork.
It had one artist throughout.
The book was never late (IIRC).
In fact, it shipped twice this month.
I thought it was neat that Granny Goodness fooled the Amazons and defeat the Greek Gods. Even if other New Gods were assisting, who's to say Goodness never had it in her to pull this off?
But AA failed for me.
Even if I could get pass that it totally disregarded characterizations and stories built up by pass WW writers,
I found that:
(1) Character developments were thread bare and shallow.
I could not feel for any of the characters at all - either their appearances were too brief, or their roles were only briefly touched upon.
For e.g. Artemis & Philippus discussed their doubts about the war in issue #3. But do we get that plot developed? No. We only get a resolution (sorta) to this undeveloped plot with the 2 amazons being reprimanded by 'Athena' at the end.
(2) Plot development don't lead to rewarding resolutions.
Was the plot leading anywhere?
Was the final resoution a consequence of action by any of the main characters?
Did the revelation of the rogue amazons and their plans lead to anything?
No.
The progression of the war didn't feel satisfying because it did not seem to lead to a bigger picture.
The story just sort of ended with 'Athena' popping up to end it.
That's all?
So it was all very disappointing.
For the disregard of the rich history and stories of the WW characters.
And for how empty the whole story turned out.
Granny Goodness? What does she have to do with anything?
Please tell me that you didn't really write this anti-climactic, deus ex machina, non-sequitur ending.
Your other comic book work has been excellent, but I'm baffled by the decisions you made with this story. Can you explain how this ending came about?
(My guess is that they gave you this Granny Goodness twist at the last minute, and therefore you didn't have time to foreshadow it in any way. But still, your name is on the cover of the comic.)
No, Timothy Callahan.
Mister Pfiefer clearly said to me in the comments section for AA #4:
"These issues are done MONTHS IN ADVANCE, long before the preceding issues arrive in the stores. And the whole series was tightly plotted LONG AGO. Like most writers, I built questions and "problems" into the story, then dealt with the later."
So, mister Pfiefer, the editorial guys gave you this to write but do you REALLY like WW and her family? For 6 issues, WW didn't do ONE single heroic thing! Who was the hero then: Batman?
I don't mind changes (a brave thing to do) if logic and a good execution are done accordingly.
One question for you: WHERE DO PEOPLE -WHO WANT TO KNOW- HAVE TO LOOK AT TO GET TO KNOW ABOUT HOW GRANNY GOODNESS DEFEATED THE ENTIRE GREEK GODS? In what upcoming book? Will DC ever reveal how she did it?
Frank
Wonder Woman fags unite!
Dear Mr. Pfeifer,
Let me start by thanking you for keeping an open forum with your readers. I'm sure at the moment this is not proving to be the resource you had hoped, so I want to make sure you know how appreciated it is. It's becoming more frequent that writers, out of fear of negative reactions, seem to distance themselves from the fans. And, out of desire not to be one of those stereotypical fans with nothing good to say, I want to let you know I've greatly enjoyed many of your stories in the past. Of particular relevance, I found your recent "Film Freak" story to be absolutely splendid, fun from start to finish. In fact, the only problem I had with that story was your use of Angle Man, who was consistently so out of character that I could scarcely believe he was meant to be the same character I'd read about in the past. I didn't give it too much thought at the time, but in light of Amazons Attack, and as a fan of both your work and the Wonder Woman title, I really hope that you never again use any characters from the Wonder Woman books. Everything you've done with them has been both some of your worst work, and some of the worst work done with them.
I'm well aware that this is a fandom prone to overreaction, and phrases like "Worst Wonder Woman story ever" and "Ruined forever" get thrown around like they're going out of style. I'm generally one of the ones rolling my eyes at the melodrama of it all, and by and large, I hope creators tune that stuff out. With Amazons Attack, however, the negativity has been almost unanimous, which is rare even in this fickle fandom. And I have to admit that I too thought it was by far the worst Wonder Woman story I've ever read, the worst story I've ever read by you, the worst comic I've read in at least a year, and very probably the worst crossover "Event" I've ever heard of in comics. I'm sure others will go into laborious detail as to why it wasn't a good story, so I won't waste your time going over that again. And, as I said, I've enjoyed your work in the past, and will continue to pick up your other works. That said, I really do think you owe Gail Simone an apology for writing this story. I can understand that you'd be inclined to take pride in your work, and be defensive when it is attacked. But I hope that, rather than be soured on the experience of getting feedback from your fans, you instead take those fans seriously when they say this was something truly dreadful, beneath your talent. You're a better writer than this, and I hope you learn from the experience.
Looking forward to your next issue of Catwoman,
Mary Nelson
Diamond didn't think it was a good idea to send my store any copies of Amazons Attack this week, but I'm looking forward to it once we finally get 'em!
I really wonder if anyone who's commenting about how much damage Will Pfeiffer is causing to Wonder Woman and the DC Universe has ever actually read a superhero comic before.
A common trope of the genre is an apparent change from the status quo, followed by a triumphant return. Does anyone honestly believe that in a world where Warner Brothers is trying to make a Wonder Woman movie that they'd allow a single writer (no to mention the various artists involved and DC's editorial staff) to cause irreparable harm to the character? Does nobody remember the "death" of Superman, or Batman's back being broken? How long did these changes last, in the end?
Calm down, wait and see. If you don't like the comic, you don't have to buy it. If you like Wonder Woman so much, there's plenty of older Wonder Woman stories that you could easily read without getting the goddamn vapors, people. You can even pick up a huge chunk of them cheap when you get the DC Showcase Presents: Wonder Woman book.
Brad -- Dude, if you think one crummy story (the effects of which will be undone in the next crossover) kills Wonder Woman for you, you're not much of a fan.
I've read lots of superhero comics, Kevin. And sometimes damage is just damage, not a prequel to triumph.
Either they are planning to retcon this in Final Crisis, which means the first six months to a year of Simone's run, which a lot of people were desperately hoping would be a change from the last *two years* of Diana sucks/everyone hates her/she's ashamed plotlines, instead gets to be Diana's ashamed and people hate her for *very good reasons*. And it won't even go anywhere.
Or they *aren't* going to retcon it , which means her core elements are razed to the ground. She's no longer an ambassador from a wise people; she no longer has anything to teach, because her society is vastly more loathsome than the one she's visiting. She's just another superstrong chick in a bikini.
Now, I'm sure it's possible to write good stories about a refugee from a savage society of warmongering child-murderers overcoming her self-hatred and surviving the fact that she's despised. But a lot of people were hoping to see stories about *Wonder Woman*, for once.
Dude,
Honestly, this series was a toxic piece of crap and not what I would have expected to see your name associated with.
Sure, its comics and what gets broken can always be unbroken by someone with talent and ability. It's too bad someone with talent and ability had to go about breaking things in the first place.
I certainly hope you take this as you "Bad Comics Experience" and strive in the future never to repeat it. It is one thing to be daring and exciting and fail, but this whole series was a dull and boring journey into failure.
The only good thing was the Athena summation. That was a sweet piece of deus ex machina. Too bad it was made trivial, even nonsensical, by the "Exciting Twist" at the end.
I don't really have an opinion on the whole "Wonder Woman ruined forever!!!" thing because, well, meh.
But with specific regard to the ending.....oh man. That was the most mind bogglingly awful ending I have ever had the misfortune to witness in ANY series, ever, in the entire time I've been reading comics.
I just.....words fail me. I mean the bees were funny, but this...
Dear Will,
It's very difficult to provide a sensible review for this series for a couple of reasons - it's impossible for us to know as a reader what you were responsible for and what was the result of editoral mandate. With that in mind, I'll make a couple of comments.
Overall I thought it was a pretty woeful series. First of all, while I could buy the amazons cutting the heads off a few soliders, you did not really present them in such a way that I could buy them as a credible threat for the heroes.
From what was presented, I couldn't understand why the story was not over in issue one - so the central threat didn't work for me.
Secondly, the reveal at the end was just daft, it had no tension at all because it was so far out of left field - I can only conclude this was an editoral mandate as I would struggle to believe that a writer who has produced quality material in the past would make such a choice.
Moreover, it suffered from the same problem that all recent DC Mini-series have - it's not really a story in it's own right, it's only real purpose is to sell a mini-series six months down the road. Now we all know that DC is out to make money but back in the day, a mini-series would follow a story arc, resolve that arc and leave plot-points to be followed up elsewhere. What happens now is that all DC Mini-series read like they are missing an issue.
So overall I thought the series was terrible. If it was the result of editoral mandate, while it's hard to turn down paying work, I think you need to consider your reputation over the long-term - nobody is going to remember Amazon Attacks as "that piece of crap series by editoral mandate" they are going to remember it with your name on it.
I don't want to appear too harsh, I've read your work before and you are clearly talented which is why this is such a disappointment.
Regards
Charles Knight
Initially, I understood Amazons Attack to be "important" for WW, that there would be a push for WW this year, and that this would be a payoff for fans frustrated by a lackluster (to be kind) "relaunch" of the book.
Sooooooooo, forgive me for being completely confused after the release of this mini and the last four issues of Wonder Woman.
You see, I hardly call the complete and utter disemboweling of a character's mythology a push for success. This mini-series and the abysmal last year of WONDER WOMAN comics weren't even in sync during the arc.
What is going on at DC?
If you guys haven't noticed, prices for comics continue to rise while the QUALITY steeply declines. That means less enjoyment for more money.
And that is irrational, but not nearly as irrational as the 'logic' of the steps taken by DC COMICS with the WONDER WOMAN franchise.
I can understand how the character might not be the most well-loved in a world such as ours. But at the very least the character and the fans of the character should be respected.
Since DC stupidly decided to pull Rucka off the book and proceed to drop it down the pit to Tartarus and bathe it in a Uranium and Feces shower, there has been nothing but diss after diss after diss.
I am done with this company and this new, unpleasant and laughably ineffectual "hero" running around calling herself "Wonder Woman". I haven't seen Wonder Woman in the DCU since the close of Volume 2's 226th issue. And it looks like she is forever lost, which is a real shame.
If the attempt with AA6 was to tell us that War is bad and can cause otherwise good people to do horrible things, well ok. And I must admit that the appearence of GG was a shock. But to get to this point did you really have to level most of Washington, turn the Amazon's into child killers, cast Wonder Girl and Super Girl as head strong morons, make Diana seem so ineffective that Angel and the Ape might have done better, and the incompetance of Sarge Steel an the DEO was so high I'm amazed they can write their own names, not to mention the President stopping in the middle of a war to lock up some women.
Ok, if this is just part of a grander story and you have a way to redeem the amazons then it better involve bringing the children back to life. And even then you've still got the action of brutally killing the kids.
That is the main problem for me. Washington can be rebuilt, Kara and Cassie can get smarter, Diana can learn how to actually do stuff again, even the DEO can be revamped a bit and the president can be voted out of office. But the Amazon's brutally murdered a father while his son watched, then the son. And that was only the start. You don't get to come back from that anyway short of massive mind control.
Mark
Issue #6 was my favourite of the series. I really liked the standoff between Diana and her mother. And I loved the GG twist, having her chain up the "old gods" to make room for the New Gods (who are, it seems, doomed). I didn't see that one coming at all! Honestly, I never expected AA to tie in so tightly with the whole Death of the New Gods, Countdown to Final Crisis thing. I thought it was pretty neat.
Anyway, I hope you enjoyed writing it. I don't know what everyone is complaining about. You have an uncanny ability to write women. I hope you continue writing Catwoman for the rest of your life.
Will--
I thought the series was a blast, I dug the ending, and the final issue has set up some intriguing possibilities for the future of Wonder Woman and the Amazons--especially if the displaced Amazons concept yields more female superheroes in the DC universe.
And Brad--"Every panel betrayed the vision of William Moulton Marston"--Wow! Do you mean the great tradition of bondage fetishism that Marston established for the character? Because you may be right about that.
"I didn't see that one coming at all!"
thats the problem though, isn't it?
it might as well have said "everyone falls off a cliff, lol" or "and then they all died, the end".
"Honestly, I never expected AA to tie in so tightly with the whole Death of the New Gods, Countdown to Final Crisis thing."
Tightly? *One page* - the final page of the whole series - completely out of the blue (with the worst pun I've seen in a long time), that you yourself admit "you didn't see coming", is somehow "tight"?
That isn't "tight", its DC sinking to all new depths in the race to make you take two steps to the side and continue to purchase a bunch of other loosely connected, poorly written, continuity-to-the-MAX! (that actually have endless continuity gaffes galore) titles that seem to suffer the same lack of non-editorial judgment thats been following them round like the plague for the longest time.
"Whats that? Granny who? Something about the New Gods? Huh, well where do I find out about that.....eh? Countdown, you say? Okay, better go check it out.
/ checks
......wow, thats dismal. Thanks, DC, that was totally worth it."
For months rumors on the various Wonder Woman message boards predicted that this mini would end with Hippolyta & the Amazons being wiped out in some horribly violent way.(Given the bloody content of the first few issues. It's not hard to imagine why.) Thankfully that wasn't the case.
Hippolyta's exile & the other Amazons forced amnesia leaves the door open for a better writer(who actually cares about these characters)to come along and restore them to their former glory. I'm hoping that person is Gail Simone. Cleaning up the mess thats been presented to her is going to be hard,but I'm rooting for her. As are a lot of other WW fans.
It takes guts to invite the dissatisfied, the entitled, and the malcontent to come at you in this forum. My hat is off to you for that.
Then I put my hat back on and take it off again for Amazons Attack. I loved it. I felt a little uncertain for parts of it but I welcome the discomfort. I don't mind when a book challenges its own internal status quo.
We all reserve the right to stop buying a book if it doesn't meet with whatever criteria we impose on it for being "good." I thought Amazons Attack was good. So I kept buying it, and I'm glad I did.
"I don't mind when a book challenges its own internal status quo."
There is a world of difference between challenging the status quo of a property and not making a lick of sense when compared to everything we know about a character and their supporting cast. A world of difference.
Regards
Charles
The time had come for Will to face a test. A test he failed -- utterly.
You've screwed up Catwoman, you've screwed up Wonder Woman. Please stay the h#ll away from Superman.
Man, but for WW? I think you said it best - "The war's over. We have a lot of cleaning up to do." I feel sorry for her fans.
Am I the only one who thought the "Amazons have amnesia and are living in our midst" was completely ripped off of concepts from the tv series Buffy the Vampire Slayer?
Was the point of this series to show how pointless war is? How in reality war is mostly chaos, unplanned, and directionless? If so, man did DC pick the correct writer to pull off all of those emotions...
Dear Mr. Pffifer.
I am a blunt person. So let me be blunt.
Amazons Attack was one of the worst stories I read this year, next to Brad Metlzer's insipid run on JLA.
Truly horrible. Not to mention Circe is ruined as a viable villian.
I'd be careful if I were you. These bad comments are just the tip of the iceburg of bad comments.
Be careful? Am I in some sort of danger?
Dear Wonder Woman fans.
I am a blunt person. So let me be blunt.
YOU FAGS REALLY NEED TO GET A LIFE!
Nah, what Universalperson means is those 90% angry people posting here are just the tips of the iceberg.
On other Boards, some WW fans said they're leaving comics. Your AA mini-series was just too much after such a long time of bad treatments done on WW and her family.
I don't blame any of them: you made every heroes and Amazons (but Batman and Catwoman) doing nothing.
Back to my question:
WHERE DO PEOPLE -WHO WANT TO KNOW- HAVE TO LOOK AT TO GET TO KNOW ABOUT HOW GRANNY GOODNESS DEFEATED THE ENTIRE GREEK GODS? In what upcoming book? Will DC ever reveal how she did it?
Also, since, those days, mini-series never end up a story, another question for you below.
But first, let's see Granny Goodness' new powers...
- She's able to look like someone else.
- She's able to be as tall as a skyscraper.
- She's able to defeat the cunning leader of the old gods Athena.
- She's able to capture all the entire Greek gods pantheon.
- She's able to rise a land out of the water.
- She's able to teleport people.
- She's able to make them forget things.
- She's able to implant fake memories.
- She must be able to strip people of their powers?
Granny Goodness' out-of-nowhere new powers are way beyond how she was portrayed in the past. In the Jeph Loeb Superman/Batman run, Diana easily subdued Granny with her lasso on Apokolips.
SO, WHERE OR HOW DID SHE GET IT?
Oh, and someone (I think on the ComicBlog) suggested that you should've used GG/fake Athena to resurrect Hippolyta as well as to order the Amazons to go in war instead of Circe. That would've been a better plot to believe. Too late, I guess.
By the way, the previous Amazons before yours (especially Banas) weren't the ones from any Sword & Sandal old movies like 'Thor and the Amazons Women', 'Colossus and The Amazon Queen' and such. (At least the Colossus movie was funny.) If this is the new Amazons after Infinite Crisis in DCU, I don't want read about those murdering, brainless, weak, with no skills Amazons. I'm not alone as you must know by now.
Frank Fournier
Frank----didn't you say on the DC Boards that you wouldn't be able to get to a comic shop until October?
Did you actually BUY the comic this time? We already know that you're an ASS-pirate, but are you a comics pirate, too?
Nah, I see what's going on on many Boards and read the previews on Newsarama. At that point, I know if I'll buy or not. But even so, when I go to the comics shop, I double check them all to be sure which to buy or not. I sure am happy of not buying things in advance without seeing it first if it's good or not. I saved a lot of money. The beauty of the Internet.
Frank Fournier
Let me get this straight: You're here to complain, in somewhat of a psychotic manner, about a comic-book that you haven't even bought or read yet?
THROW THE BUM OUT!
Coogan(any relation to "Cooter" from the Dukes of Hazard(LOL)?)I'm sure Mr. Pfeifer feels honored to have some bigotted idiot with the mentality of a ten year old defending him against all the big bad Wondy fans. (Who you wouldn't have the stones to spew your crap to outside of the internet.) With fans like you,he doesn't need any enemies.
And calling Frank psychotic? Bwahahaha!! Hello pot,meet your homophobic twin kettle.
You sure put me in my place with that "Bwahahaha!!"
Calm down, little lady, or I'll have to hogtie you with your golden lasso.
And speaking of ladies, where's Frank? Is he too busy over at the Pizza Hut message board, complaining about a pizza that he never bought?
Someone stuck with this story long enough to read the actual ending? After female internment camps I had to throw in the towel. I sure am sad I missed...wait, did Athena really just memory wipe everyone? Classy.
Coogan, given that you seem to have such a hard-on for Frank,I suspect you'd much rather be playing bondage games with him. Just so you can release some of that pent up homoerotic frustration your holding onto. Bwahahahaha!!
I have a question for Mr.Pfeifer. Before AA officially began, Pete Woods posted some character designs for the various Amazons on his blog. One of the designs was for a "Black-Ops" Amazon. Why didn't any of those characters appear in the story? And what would their role have been if they had?
"Coogan, given that you seem to have such a hard-on for Frank,I suspect you'd much rather be playing bondage games with him."
Seeing as how your panties are all bunched up and you're so quick on the trigger to defend him, I'm pretty sure that's YOUR fantasy, Colon Cowboy.
Colon cowboy(LOL)? The only further confirmation we would need to verify that your a total closet case, is the revelation that you just got arrested in an Idaho mens bath-room for soliciting sex from an undercover police officer(LOL).
It's a psychological fact that the most homophobic men are also the most closeted.
Do you have any psychological facts to explain why Frank is such a cheap and annoying bastard?
PS: My extensive studies have shown that the repeated use of "(LOL)" is a sure sign of homosexuality.
Will: Well, not you, but your self esteem is in danger by having your comments swarmed by pissed off fans who really don't like what you've written. And now that you've been linked to WFA...
Well, I hope your server can handle it! XD
He's in for it now! That WFA sure is a tough crowd!
http://wpweb2k.gsia.cmu.edu/wfa/
All About UniveralPerson:
"Watch this young adult closely. Look at the way he moves. He is in this world physically, but mentally he is in the far reaches of reality. Whether Matthew, MBA, universalperson, IT1000, Unknown, Unkown, or VideoGamerMS, he walks through the worlds of fiction before returning to his secret lair...the Internet!"
Hide, Will, hide! This guy's more dangerous than Max Cady!
I feel inclined to post here, Will, to help represent the population of comics readers who aren't alarmist jackasses.
I didn't love Amazons Attack, I admit, but that is because I've really never cared for this society of isolationist all-female warriors who manage to invent healing rays and morphing invisible airplanes.
That said, you and Pete Woods did a great job selling a weak concept. Using the disparity between these mythological creatures and the modern armed forces was quite clever, and made the Amazons more interesting than they have been in decades. Well done.
As for the rest of the whining here, it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Perhaps Granny Goodness was powered-up by Darkseid, or perhaps it's a New Earth thing. There have been far bigger changes to Wonder Woman before. Any talk of damage is absurd, and plenty of us get that.
Once again, good job.
"Perhaps Granny Goodness was powered-up by Darkseid, or perhaps it's a New Earth thing."
Yes, but simply dropping her in on the last page of the whole story without warning - purely so everyone can scratch their heads and (after saying WTF a few hundred times) ponder what single issue / mini-series / crossover / maxi-super-mini-monster-series they have to purchase next to make sense of a mini series with no actual ending of any real relevance is a bit much.
Why must we become people who cannot stay on topic and easily resort to insulting others instead of debating the merits of their opinions?
I think we should all remember that we're critiquing a comic book. Why must it ALWAYS get personal?
If it means anything, three points:
1) I haven't read Amazons Attack, but I strongly believe that the mini-series wasn't in any way representative of Pfeifer's body of comic book work.
2) It seems, based on what I have read in the blogosphere, that there was some sort of "editorial direction" going on in terms of where the plot was headed and the resolutions.
3) Instead of hiding out in an ivory tower Will chose to put himself out here on his blog and ask the public what they thought. That is awseome and brave.
So..if Grace is half-Amazon (bana), and she's super-super-powerful....why are the full blooded amazons so weak in their depiction in AA?
Too many questions that Will has yet to answer. Will Batman ask Zatana for a "bullet proof" incarnation he can recite on a daily basis?
If GG mind-wiped all of the Amazons and hid them, how did all the other heroes (as seen in the latest WW) find out about it?
Was the final reveal planned from the beginning, or did DC force a last minute change (which made things look a hell of a lot more like a deus-ex-machina writing shortcut)?
Were the giant cyclopses (cyclopsi?) and giant bees a result of GG's doing? (they clearly didn't have a role in previous WW stories...)
More questions that need to be answered....
If a handful of geeks hated the comic so much, why did they keep buying it?
How could anyone even remember any of this stupid crap long enough to nit-pick about it?
What do these few crybabies hope to accomplish by flooding this board with overwrought complaints? Even if he's unhappy with how the series turned out, I doubt if Pfeifer would admit it here. Why should he?
And finally:
Has Frank EVER picked up a check?
More pearls of wisdom from Coogan,the colon cowboy(LOL).
The LOL-ing Rump Ranger is back----you gays sure love to tee-hee.
See ya at the gun show!
Watch Coogan,the colon cow-boy as he rides his faithful boloney pony and defends the world against common sense & people a whole lot smarter than he is(LOL).
God Bless America, God Bless George Bush, and GOD BLESS JOHN WAYNE!
See ya at the gun show!
"If a handful of geeks hated the comic so much, why did they keep buying it?"
This is such a spurious argument wheeled out when people dare criticise something - and it seems to happen more often in comics than any other artform for some reason.
Not everyone "bought it". Not everyone *needs* to buy it. People who work in comic stores. People who got them off their friends. People who take an interest in comics yet don't buy every single issue on the stands - but (quite easily) manage to keep up with whats going on through friends, word of mouth, communities, blogs, whatever.
All of their opinions are valid.
Unless the sole worth of the creators artistic merit hinges on a few dollars before criticism and / or praise can be given, of course.
Comics don't exist in a vacuum, anymore than the stories that drive them do. And its surreal in the extreme to suggest that people existing in those comics communities can't voice their opinion on things they can see happening to their favourite characters whether they happened to buy the series or not.
And people can still offer valid criticism without actually having to have physically purchased every issue on the stands, ever.
"How could anyone even remember any of this stupid crap long enough to nit-pick about it?"
If you're going to apply the "if you don't like anything you feel to be stupid, then simply forget about it" then you might as well say "forget about anything in there that was worthwhile too".
Otherwise its not a level playing field. Aside from the lame flamefests on here (which should simply be deleted as they add nothing), I'm sure the writer is happy to take on board the points raised. Otherwise he wouldn't have bothered throwing the floor open for each issue, would he?
And by the way, this "stupid crap" (as you so wonderfully call it) may well *have* to be remembered for some time to come, considering it has obvious lead ins to Death of the New Gods, Countdown and who-knows-what else.
"What do these few crybabies hope to accomplish by flooding this board with overwrought complaints?"
Well, why bother posting anything at all? I suppose everyone can sit round high fiving all day, but don't the people who object to elements from the story have the right to offer those opinions too? If not, why not?
"Even if he's unhappy with how the series turned out, I doubt if Pfeifer would admit it here. Why should he?"
Well, that's up to him. But anybody thats offered what they feel to be a valid criticism of the work addressed is hardly trying to drag him kicking and screaming into the street and issue a fifteen page Mea Culpa. Being able to offer their thoughts on what they thought sucked is likely more than enough for them.
Blah, blah, blah.
If you didn't bother buying it, then keep your fucking yap shut.
PS: I thought you were great in "The New Guy!"
"Blah, blah, blah.
If you didn't bother buying it, then keep your fucking yap shut."
Sorry, no yap shut here. I bought them all as a favour to a friend who couldn't get hold of the comic in his area, and was able to thus read all the issues while also getting my money back in the process.
Thanks for establishing you have no real grounding in anything other than lame trolling though.
If you bought them, then you should have come right out and said so, DJ Qualls.
You may not agree with my point that those who don't buy the comic have no right to complain, but I've got just as much of a right to post that opinion as you do your long-winded blatherings.
Practice what you pontificate--or should "everyone sit round high fiving all day?"
"You may not agree with my point that those who don't buy the comic have no right to complain, but I've got just as much of a right to post that opinion as you do your long-winded blatherings."
Thats the point, though. Nobody is telling you to shut up. You can say whatever the hell you want to say. When it becomes objectionable, is when those in the smother-all-criticism camp start telling people to stfu.....like, you know, you did.
"If you bought them, then you should have come right out and said so, DJ Qualls."
Aside from the lame cancer victim "gag" (if you can call it that), i could care less if your overriding obsession with regards whether someone can comment on something is whether they bought it or not.
"Practice what you pontificate--or should "everyone sit round high fiving all day?"
Sorry, you've lost me. What exactly are you telling me to start practicing? Buying comics? Oh, I do that. Comment on what I find to be good and bad in comics? Oh, I do that too. If you object to "long winded blatherings", no one is forcing you to reply.
Are you still upset about that Mary Jane statue?
http://www.paperghost.com/2007/05/i_think_therefo.html
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
"Are you still upset about that Mary Jane statue?"
...oh dear, in the absence of anything useful to say (or indeed respond with) you've resorted to fishing around weblogs and changing the subject entirely.
lmao. A winner is you.
Don't worry, I'll leave you alone now. I can't take you seriously after reading that "Mary Jane" post, anyway.
Pontificate all you want. It's okay. This is a safe place.
The last thing I want to do is make a sissy cry.
Paperghost,
Please know that your measured and considered postings are MUCH appreciated--especially over those which do nothing but use expletives to personally attack and insult others.
Yes, they are greatly appreciated. I've had my fill of these internet ruffians!
(Vic again)
I forgot to say that I really appreciate your giving us the opportunity to voice our concerns.
I know it must be hard to read so many negative responses to something that you've worked so hard over, and it's good to know that at least one person at DC is willing to listen to the concerns of those who actually read the comics.
Mr. Pfeifer -
Congratulations on pulling off the greatest sales gimmick of all time. Due to the "controversy" that Amazons Attack has engendered on the internet I'm actually interested in reading it to see if it's half as "bad" or "damaging" as people seem to preceive.
I'm sure that even if I don't like it - which I probably won't - I'll have had a lot of fun nonetheless!
So Pfifer has displeased the hardcore WW fans. Who the hell cares? The runs that the die-hard WW fans have loved (perez, Jimenez) sold for shit, like almost everything WW. The Amazonian mythology IS impenetrable, and I'm glad it's gone. WW is a great character whose books have NEVER been good. Maybe now that we're jettisoning a thousand or so Amazons, WW will seem distinct and interesting. WW is a superero character in a superhero book. All the poli-sci has been done to death and is a reason WW has never sold well.
The Amazonian mythology IS impenetrable, and I'm glad it's gone. WW is a great character whose books have NEVER been good.
How exactly can Wonder Woman be a great character if you hate the thing that is the character's core.
Maybe now that we're jettisoning a thousand or so Amazons, WW will seem distinct and interesting. WW is a superero character in a superhero book.
How does making her less distinctive and more generic make her more interesting and distinctive?
All the poli-sci has been done to death and is a reason WW has never sold well.
Perez's run sold well, and so have others, sporadically. Wonder Woman in the Silver Age, pre-diplomacy, was never a chart-topper either.
I agree there were some aspects of the mini that misfired, but overall it was an entertaining read. I don't think it deserves the bile hurled at it. Looking forward to your future work and that of Pete Woods, whose art was beautiful throughout.
I have heard ways in the boards that the story could have been 100% better. It just seemed like DC was aware the stuff they were putting out was bad quality so where does that put the current customers. Are we to expect there will be even more bad quality stuff coming out? I really hope this affects the sales of the other dc minis that do come out. I have been wanting to get into Wonder Woman again for the past year. At this point for everything that has been done I see her damaged goods. I for one will not touch the title again till Fina Crisis is over. Since this countdown stuff started i've dropped my monthly dc books from 15 down to 2. The sinestro corps story seems to be the only thing worth reading right now. Dc's editors need to do their jobs better. Amazons was like a bag of ideas all dropped in a blender mixed up into an incoherent story. I personally think DC thought they could wow the fans and just the granny reveal would somehow make us forget the story. The ending really comes off as if it was rushed last minute into the story. I do like Will's CatWoman so I dont know what happened to this mini. A big disappointment.
"How exactly can Wonder Woman be a great character if you hate the thing that is the character's core."
In the first place, that's a question, and needs a question mark.
Just because it's the core of her character's past doesn't mean you have to dwell on it nearly every month, and have every story revolve around it.
Superman is a Kryptonian character, but hardly any of his stories are about Krypton, and are weighted down with the politics of Krypton. Krypton is part of who he is, sure, but he spends his time on Earth, in cities, helping people and fighting crime. Superman isn't surrounded by hundreds of Kryptonians all the time (just one or two relatives) and has pretty much adopted the human values he was raised with. I think if Superman's stories invariably revoled around the traditions and history of Krypton, his sales would be crap as well.
"Maybe now that we're jettisoning a thousand or so Amazons, WW will seem distinct and interesting. WW is a superero character in a superhero book.
How does making her less distinctive and more generic make her more interesting and distinctive?"
Making her the only Amazon we see or hear about ONLY makes her more distinctive. I'm all for the GL corps, but you have to admit, Kyle Rayner was certainly more distinctive when there were no other GLs around.
WW stands out more now that there aren't any other amazons around pontificating endlessly.
"Perez's run sold well, and so have others, sporadically. Wonder Woman in the Silver Age, pre-diplomacy, was never a chart-topper either."
Maybe it wasn't high on the charts, but the silver age books sold ten times current sales. Obviously something isn't working with the way WW has ben handled the past dcade or so.
If we continue to focus on the tiny-and-dwindling hardcore fans only, WW and comics as a whole are in for dark times. People obviously like the character of Wonder Woman--her 70s TV show, while goofy, was a ratings hit, and is remembered fondly. And in that show, she spent her time in action, and had almost no ties to overwrought Amazonian mythology.
WW can be an exciting and fun character. The status quo you're all so upset about having shaken up is ruining the character.
you guys make me laugh.
:)
It is one thing to change the character, but at least make a decent story. A lot of people are complaining about what went on in the story having to do with its structure. I was interested in seeing Diana as a spy in here new status quo . It made little sense to me though to bring the amazons back from some dimension where they were at back to earth to fight just to be mind wiped at the end of the story. Why do practically the same thing twice? It doesn't make sense to me. And I guess Dc wants to put all the blame on Granny Goodness as a crazy brood and that is why the story make sense. Well too bad its the creators' faults.
Will, thanks for having this forum where fans can offer (desperately needed) feedback to TPTB at DC. I neglected to say as much in my tirade.
Well, Will...
First, an admission: I've never bought any of your work, including this one. I believe I have read a borrowed copy of your H-E-R-O. It was OK.
So what I know about Amazons Attack is through online criticism & excerpts, & I think one Byrne-stolen issue of Picoult's Wonder Woman run.
So, for what it's worth:
There was a time, when I was not a Wonder Woman fan, when I would have been cool with someone playing the Amazons as contemptible; not having a frame of reference of dozens of other Wonder Woman issues, I wouldn't objected to them being played violent or stupid.
I actually wanted them removed from the book, discredited, or simply retconned out of existence by giving Wondie a different origin.
You see, I liked the mythology angle of the character, but I didn't like Paradise Island. I am not a gender feminist, nor am I someone who sees women as somehow alien to/inferior to "normal" men. So the idea that somehow the world's greatest female superhero has to come from an all-female society seems weirdly sexist to me.
It still does.
But, something happened. I started reading Wonder Woman when Byrne came on the book, because I hoped for a patented John Byrne Revamp(TM). I rationalized his slaughter of the Amazons in his first arc as being symbolic of a fresh start, while older fans turned against him for it. Then he brought in a kid sidekick I liked, so I stuck around, & the older fans hated her because "that jackass Byrne" created her.
Along the way, I became a fan. Not only of the Diana/Donna/Cassie triumfeminate, but of other characters in the mythos like Mala & Artemis. So it's unpleasant now to see all that character development not built on, but disregarded.
It's tempting to say that the old Wonder Woman fans are unimportant; that your editorial or authorial vision trumps what thousands of fans of previous versions think.
But DC would do better to write something that works not only for new fans, but for the old fans those new fans will become.
The Amazons have been written as very smart & very sympathetically at times, & as cannon fodder or slightly mad at other times. This latest series puts them, as a nation, in a box marked, "foolish, brutal, & easily manipulated." Their behavior & its causes in this story can be retconned; it probably will be. But it's a lousy impression to give new readers, since it runs contrary to the original premises of this character, & thus only contributes to the already thorny conflict between fan interpretations of Wonder Woman's premise.
In other news, I haven't seen "The Bourne Ultimatum" yet, and have no plans TO see it-----but I won't let THAT stop me from posting my review soon!
The only person to ruin Wonder Woman was Jodi Picoult. She turned Wonder Woman into a giggling, flirty, ditz that couldn't follow a witch through demon bars or whatever. Those issues were terrible beyond belief, Amazons Attck was just a means to an end.
First off, I salute you for opening yourself up to criticism. That's brave and awesome.
But... *man* this thing was crap.
Where do I even start? With the appalling gender politics? "Blah blah patriarchy blah blah we loathe men and everything they stand for, chop off their bastard heads." This mini takes the Amazons, feminist icons who for decades have stood for everything women can be when they aren't held back by centuries of sexism, and turns them into the raving misandrist feminazis that every misogynist bastard has ever claimed every strong woman is. This mini sees a female fighter pilot and a male parental caretaker slaughtered, and a screaming woman in distress rescued two pages later. This mini sees Batman and Superman running the show while Black Canary, chairwoman of the Justice League, mostly stands around and gets Nemesis thrown at her from ten feet up by Wondy (seriously, it happened twice) for exactly no apparent reason.
Or how about the appalling treatment of Wonder Woman herself? It's her crossover. Her entire mythology since the post-Crisis Perez reboot has been about diplomacy and arbitration, her mission to bring peace (the Amazon peace, mind you) to a world that needs it. She stands with one foot among the Amazons and one foot in our world. Circe is her foe, a villain of magic and mythology she's uniquely suited to understand and combat. And yet, Diana was less than useless, accomplishing nothing throughout the entire series. She had at least one "final showdown" with Polly per book, all of which went exactly the same and not one of which meant anything. Her allies treated her with less respect than they did Nemesis of the DoMA, whose loyalty they should have far more reason to question. BATMAN was repeatedly and ludicrously shown to know more about Circe, magic, and Amazons in general than Diana herself, and in one of the most inane